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Paul Lewis: That's the rumor. Okay.


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mullins: That's that's the rumor. So we we will start off with Paul's gonna make a few comments and the Alan's gonna follow up with some questions, and then the floor is open for an hour and a half. So Paul, go ahead.


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Paul Lewis: Yeah, and I'm gonna keep it really simple and short. I know Alan's got some good questions. I don't know that we'll ever get any answers or definitive answers to any of them, but what I tried to do here is acknowledge that at the heart of


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Paul Lewis: of Polanyi's project is this moral project, trying to understand why we destroyed Europe. And so moral inversion is a key part of his diagnosis. So there's an ethical sensibility that underscores or underlies all of his work.


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Paul Lewis: People have written about his ethics, but nobody's developed a systematic ethic based on his work.


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Paul Lewis: And, you know, I wasn't trying to do that in this essay either, but at least


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Paul Lewis: draw out some of the characteristics of a Polanian ethic. You know, what kind of vision of the good life, what kind of understanding of moral agency emerges out of reading Polani. So an ethic that is Polanian would, I think.


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Paul Lewis: need to deal with some of these things. So that's, I'll just leave it at that.


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mullins: Yeah, yeah, Alan.


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Allen Dyer: Okay, and I'll… I'll jump in. I've.


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Allen Dyer: written a note to Paul, so he's heard of most of what I have to say, and I'll share that, in which I, first of all, want to acknowledge Paul, and for all of you, what a lucid and an insightful


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Allen Dyer: essay this is. As many times as we've, and I'll say this personally, as many times as I've read about moral inversion and read Diane's wonderful essay about it, and looked at both some of the shorter pieces Polanyi's written, and as well as


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Allen Dyer: having read Personal Knowledge several times, I find, still.


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Allen Dyer: this essay very useful in that regard. So thank you, Paul, for that. Thank you for the clarity and lucidity and insight. I love the map metaphor for the orientation it provides us.


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Allen Dyer: moral vision and moral agency. Not unlike Susan Sontag's two passports metaphor, the sick and the well.


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Allen Dyer: And also Polanyi's use of metaphor, the scientific outlook, a medical metaphor with its sickness and cure.


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Allen Dyer: I appreciate the succinct questions that Paul came up about my chapter that we talked about last time, and I would like to have come up with


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Allen Dyer: succinct questions similar to those. Instead, I've left with a number of why questions to invite Paul's speculation, and he's heard these questions, and for all of us for jumping in when we have the open discussion.


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Allen Dyer: First of all, why did we destroy Europe?


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Allen Dyer: This is a theme that Freud and Einstein also took up in an essay or exchange of letters called Why War? Einstein suggested that there should be an international agency overseeing


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Allen Dyer: international conflict, which the League of Nations did set up, and Freud, who


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Allen Dyer: Lost a grandson in World War One, which he considered senseless, led him to some speculations about a death instinct and the darker side of human nature.


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Allen Dyer: I think Polanyi is more sanguine, more optimistic about human possibility, but no less concerned with the destruction of the early years of


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Allen Dyer: of,


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Allen Dyer: the 20th century, and actually, the precursors of that in the 19th century, Dostoevsky, Marx, Nietzsche, which his


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Allen Dyer: Paper, elaborates with also some clarity that we don't always see in his more abstract writings.


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Allen Dyer: Why War, Polanyi's article is from 1968, and would have been much on his mind when I first met, Polanyi in 1969 in Oxford, and he commented to me what was somewhat, shocking to my 21-year-old self.


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Allen Dyer: When he referred to the… what I remember his saying is the disillusion of European culture. He may have said.


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Allen Dyer: the destruction of European civilization. But that was a lot for me to assimilate at that point, and I was delighted to have an opportunity to go back to the 1968 paper, which really does offer an awful lot of insight.


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Allen Dyer: And then coincidentally, The Eccles paper that he refers to follows in tradition and discovery, immediately on the Bob.


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Allen Dyer: 19… 68 paper.


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Allen Dyer: This is a wonderful place to start a discussion of Polanyi's ethics and its relationship to epistemology. And Paul gives us a succinct explanation of moral inversion.


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Allen Dyer: Arguing, in answer to the question, that under the influence of positivist philosophies, Western liberal culture decoupled moral passion from commitment to the reality of moral values. Moral values such as Truth.


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Allen Dyer: Goodness and justice?


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Allen Dyer: And that this separation allowed moral passions, which we might understand as emotions, although they may not be quite the same thing, this separation allowed moral passions to be redirected


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Allen Dyer: to destruct in destructive ways, which ultimately led to the rise of violent authoritarian regimes like those of Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini.


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Allen Dyer: And we might add, following my concern that the early years of the 20th century are shaping up like the early years of the… the early years of the 21st century are shaping up like the early years of the 20th century, we might add Putin, Orban, Modi, and Trump.


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Allen Dyer: How does this happen? When Polanyi dynamism, what is the force that propels it?


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Allen Dyer: Learning the lessons of history.


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Allen Dyer: as they are sketched out for us, we see the emergence of violent authoritarian regimes in the 21st century, perhaps for similar reasons. A muddling of reality.


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Allen Dyer: As I suggest in Madness and the Political Divide, or a loss of moral vision, as Paul suggests in Mapping the Territories.


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Allen Dyer: Paul mentions that Polanyi speaks of


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Allen Dyer: transcendent values, I guess one could say transcendental values, truth, goodness, and justice, the very ideals that positive philosophies repudiate, values that can't be measured, counted, or quantified. And so ethics, as well as aesthetics.


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Allen Dyer: Metaphysics, theology, and psychology, the devalued disciplines, are the ones that find Polanyi most useful.


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Allen Dyer: I'm gonna comment here, I'm sort of a branch in my thinking. The disciplines that find Polanyi most useful, I recall this is something that Doug Adams often used to say, how Polanyi helps us when we're dealing with questions of value, aesthetics.


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Allen Dyer: Which was particularly concern of Doug Adams.


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Allen Dyer: and ethics, which is particularly a concern of Charles McCoy, how Polanyi helps us with those. Not that he answers the questions that we might have about ethics, aesthetics, theology, metaphysics, even psychology, but how he helps us think about those disciplines.


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Allen Dyer: Why haven't we developed a systematic ethic from Polanyi's ideas? And as Paul says.


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Allen Dyer: the definitive account of a Polanyian ethics is yet to be written. Why haven't we developed a systematic ethic from Polanyi's ethics? I take it, and I think we all might take for granted, that an explicit system of ethics would be an impossibility


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Allen Dyer: Given the tacit structure of knowing that ethics emerges from what we believe we know. So the relationship between ethics and epistemology, that we have to go through epistemology to get to ethics.


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Allen Dyer: as Polanyi helps us understand.


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Allen Dyer: And here's another question to ponder in the 21st century. If people once lived in a culture of shared values.


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Allen Dyer: Are we additionally challenged in a pluralistic world?


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Allen Dyer: Is this world of liberal democracy whose loss or destruction Polanyi and Freud and Einstein lament?


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Allen Dyer: Irretrievably a thing of the past, or is there some way that we can hold onto that or recover that?


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Allen Dyer: Post-critical philosophy chronologically preceded what we now call postmodernism.


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Allen Dyer: Postmodernism is often undergirded by a Marxist idealism and possible relativism.


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Allen Dyer: With Polanyi's cautions, do we imagine that we might be in a liminal state between the old postmodern age and a yet unnamed and undefined post-postmodernism? In other words, what is the relevance of all of this for the 21st century?


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Allen Dyer: And a final question in perplexity.


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Allen Dyer: Do you, Paul, or any of you, have any suggestions and strategies for introducing newbies


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Allen Dyer: To the subtleties of post-critical thinking, people not yet familiar with Polanyi's ideas, what is a good point of entry to post-critical thinking?


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Allen Dyer: I'm looking forward to the discussion.


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Paul Lewis: Yeah, that's, That's a lot to try to respond to.


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Allen Dyer: Yeah, okay.


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Paul Lewis: B.


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Paul Lewis: I have moved.


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Paul Lewis: Let me sort of respond.


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Paul Lewis: In the middle.


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Paul Lewis: With perhaps the easiest of the questions to answer.


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Paul Lewis: You know, why haven't people developed a systematic ethic from Polanyi's perspective? And I think Diane Yeager, in her essay, on moral inversion.


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Paul Lewis: from, what was it, 2002, 2003, somewhere in there, in Tradition of Discovery, that's reprinted in the Festschrift. I mean, she gives some reasons for it that I think


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Paul Lewis: Or plausible. One is… Polanyi's complicated.


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Paul Lewis: He doesn't explicitly address ethical questions, and a lot of people will find it difficult to understand his epistemology in order to get to the implications for ethics.


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Paul Lewis: I think part of it, too, is, especially when Polanyi was writing.


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Paul Lewis: Ethics really was more, coming out of the philosophy… the analytical philosophy mode.


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Paul Lewis: More concerned with what some folks have called decisionism or quandary ethics.


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Paul Lewis: It's not till 1971 that Edmund Pinkoff writes Quandary Ethics, where he says, basically, we're getting it all wrong.


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Paul Lewis: we need to start paying attention to the kinds of persons that we are, because who we are is decisive for our answers to the question, what should we do? And that's, at least for me, one of the ways that the whole issue of character ethics or virtue ethics.


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Paul Lewis: One of the times that it starts to blossom.


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Paul Lewis: So I think…


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Paul Lewis: Again, people had a certain stereotype of what ethics was about. Polanyi doesn't… at least didn't fit it at that time.


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Paul Lewis: He talks about passions.


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Paul Lewis: A lot of people are scared of the passions, or the emotions. So much of Western philosophy has said, no, we need to be about.


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Paul Lewis: Yeah, rational. We need to be rational. Rationality has to control the passions. And some people want to take that back to Plato's analogy of the two horses pulling the chariot.


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Paul Lewis: So there's… I think there's a lot of… there's a lot of, baggage there.


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Paul Lewis: And for those of us who have written about ethics, I think


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Paul Lewis: It's because we found Polani more informal… informational and useful to our projects.


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Paul Lewis: I think it's helped me write a better Christian ethic. And that's been my focus. I think there's a whole cluster of reasons and probably more than that as to why people have not written a systematic ethic.


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Paul Lewis: I'll stop there, see if anybody wants to, Pick up on that topic.


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Duane Lookingbill: all.


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Paul Lewis: Yeah.


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Duane Lookingbill: So, I'm just listening to what you just said.


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Duane Lookingbill: about epistemology and its helpfulness to our projects.


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Duane Lookingbill: Is it… is it, therefore, maybe somehow


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Duane Lookingbill: more heuristic to ask, like, what is Polanyi doing than What is Polanyi saying?


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Duane Lookingbill: For all the reasons that, already were pointed out about


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Duane Lookingbill: If you have the sense of the tacit.


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Duane Lookingbill: The answer isn't in the explicit, because the tacit has the last word.


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Duane Lookingbill: So what is Polanyi doing in his epistemology that's helpful?


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Duane Lookingbill: Say, for example, Christian ethics, where


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Duane Lookingbill: I would assume, I mean, you could lop off the fact that in personal knowledge, he says, well, we're not going to deal with revelation. And yet, he doesn't exclusively deal with reason alone, so…


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Duane Lookingbill: So he's doing something there that… what is he doing that's helpful, especially when you're sort of


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Duane Lookingbill: Not necessarily outside his heuristic vision, but you're working on something that's your project and not his project.


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Paul Lewis: Yeah, I guess I see a couple of things.


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Paul Lewis: One is he's helpful, again, for


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Paul Lewis: For saying that all ethical reflection, Christian, Buddhist.


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Paul Lewis: rationalist whatever.


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Paul Lewis: makes certain… bears on… it's informed by tacit commitments, that we have learned over time.


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Paul Lewis: And that truth…


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Paul Lewis: You know, the search for truth, the search for goodness, the search for beauty, whatever. It's really a process.


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Paul Lewis: And, you know, that's helpful for me within the Christian tradition, to remind me that, Christian ethics, Christian doctrines are all really attempts at faithful innovation. That's why I called the book what I called.


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Duane Lookingbill: And that's your new book. That's not a that's just just so. Right?


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Paul Lewis: Yeah, yeah,


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Paul Lewis: One of my teachers in graduate school said the best theologians are always trying to balance two


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Paul Lewis: two competing tendencies. One is to… we're trying to hold on to two things at once. Maintain the integrity of the tradition.


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Paul Lewis: At the same time as it needs to be made intelligible to each new generation, right?


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Paul Lewis: Okay.


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Paul Lewis: And so part of the arguments in the history of theology, the history of Christian ethics, is whether these innovations are faithful or not. But we're always doing it. I mean, it's there in the biblical texts.


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Duane Lookingbill: And there's… and there's where Polanyi comes in, when I said he isn't just concentrated on


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Duane Lookingbill: But reason alone, because of this fiduciary component and fiduciary program, and…


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Duane Lookingbill: I don't… do you think he says faith is reason? Maybe that's the wrong question, but I'm just saying, my witness is totally in resonance with


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Duane Lookingbill: Where you're coming from, and what you're saying right now.


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Paul Lewis: And as as.


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Paul Lewis: As I'm talking, I'm thinking, okay, maybe I've relied on Polanyi's idea of dynamic orthodoxy, and maybe that's influenced my idea of faithful innovation.


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Duane Lookingbill: But again, so then how do you get newbies into dynamic orthodoxy? He's asked some good questions, hasn't he?


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Paul Lewis: Yeah, I mean, like, I teach an Engaging the New Testament class for freshmen.


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Paul Lewis: Which is mostly freshmen.


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Paul Lewis: And I'll say things like, okay, look at, look at, the prologue to John's Gospel. In the beginning was the Word.


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Paul Lewis: Okay, the word is, comes from the Greek Logos Stoic philosophy.


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Paul Lewis: And then, as the author of John's Gospel.


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Paul Lewis: keeps to talk about it, it resonates with what the Jewish tradition was referring to as Hokma, wisdom, right? So the author of John's Gospel is saying.


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Paul Lewis: What the Stoics call Logos, and what the Jewish people call Chokhmah.


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Paul Lewis: became human in Jesus.


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Paul Lewis: Now, there's some fierce innovation going on there.


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Paul Lewis: Right? In the biblical text. One of my other favorite examples is, in 1 Corinthians, where Paul's… I think it's 1 Corinthians 7, where Paul is.


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Paul Lewis: talking about sexual misconduct in the church in Corinth.


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Paul Lewis: And talking about divorce or not, and he says, hey, look, I have a word from the Lord on this. I know a saying of Jesus. No divorce. And he goes on a little bit, but…


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Paul Lewis: If you're married to an unbeliever, and the unbeliever wants out, divorce is okay. So he's just contradicted Jesus.


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Paul Lewis: And at the end of the chapter, he says, I think I too have the Spirit of God. I can hear him stomping his foot when he says that. But you know, even through the.


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Duane Lookingbill: the.


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Paul Lewis: There's this kind of…


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Paul Lewis: Struggle to connect the tradition with, the situation, the questions and the resources, that we've had. Again, Thomas Aquinas is a, another perfect example. How do I square this Aristotelian philosophy with the platonic Christianity that I, have inherited? Yeah.


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Paul Lewis: Sorry.


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Paul Lewis: Dick.


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marymoodey: For me, And this is a very personal position, I know.


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marymoodey: The core of Polanyi's ethics is that Discussions ought to be convivial.


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marymoodey: And that… Why is that… why do I consider that to be a norm?


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marymoodey: You know, some kind of a rule that I think.


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marymoodey: As a practice, we do try to follow, so there's a certain sense in which I'm going back to this idea of


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marymoodey: of what Polanians try to do, and I think one of the things that we try to do is to keep our discussions convivial.


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Paul Lewis: Okay.


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marymoodey: And that notion of discussion, I think, is really important from a Polanyi perspective because he places so much emphasis upon


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marymoodey: the model of scientific discussion.


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Paul Lewis: Okay.


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marymoodey: as a prototype for discussions in other institutional domains.


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marymoodey: And so I think that in some ways, For Polanyi.


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marymoodey: truth always emerges somehow in those kinds of interactions, those kinds of discussions, and that the ideal for those kinds of discussions


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marymoodey: Is that they be convivial.


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marymoodey: And of course.


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marymoodey: That's open to different kinds of interpretations. And yet in practice, we reach some kind of working agreement about what we mean by being convivial as opposed to not being convivial.


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Paul Lewis: 2,


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Paul Lewis: And I think central to that is something that you mentioned, is we're all committed to trying to better understand what is the truth about these matters. You know, we may not have


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Paul Lewis: the complete answer. And we may not ever have the complete answer, but we can… we can get better answers.


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Paul Lewis: Again, kind of going back to something we talked about in the last video, Reality is always gonna.


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Paul Lewis: Reveal itself to us in always new ways.


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Allen Dyer: Well, you stress that in your paper, Paul, about the incompleteness, the inevitable incompleteness of tacit understanding.


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marymoodey: Yeah. Yeah.


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Paul Lewis: And so the… the challenge is to… how to maintain this commitment to


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Paul Lewis: The process to truth, etc, knowing that our answers are always going to be partial.


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Paul Lewis: Doesn't mean they're false, they're just partial.


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Gus Breytspraak: Gary?


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marymoodey: Yeah.


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marymoodey: I have some muddled thoughts brewing.


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marymoodey: From… Why haven't… We developed a systematic.


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marymoodey: A.


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marymoodey: a definitive and make, pedagogy or thought process of Polanyi's ethics And…


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marymoodey: And I'm thinking, and this ties in… sort of with the Dialogues emerging from scientific thought.


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marymoodey: And.


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marymoodey: and movements that we see in history and art and language, that there's a fluidity and a constant


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marymoodey: evolution where words don't aren't locked into


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marymoodey: a specific meaning, and and I'm always finding it fascinating how words evolve and new meanings.


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marymoodey: emerge. And so I think.


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marymoodey: A systematic approach could almost limit


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marymoodey: the discussion.


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marymoodey: I think about a system of scales that we had the octave for so long, and then Schoenberg comes along and says, aha, what about a 12-tone scale? So he breaks from the system, and in education.


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marymoodey: when we have teachable moments, usually they're breaking out of the system of scope and sequence, and they take a new pathway, and more discussion comes out, and perhaps


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marymoodey: That's a muddled way.


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marymoodey: To say, perhaps this is why.


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Paul Lewis: Oh.


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Paul Lewis: Bill.


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Paul Lewis: Did I see you raise your hand?


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mullins: Yeah, I was going to go in a little different direction here. I do think Polanyi is complicated and that's probably one of the reasons he hasn't been mined.


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mullins: quite as much in what we call ethics as he could. But I think there are parts of Polanyi that, really, those of us who take Polanyi seriously need to work more on and make more


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mullins: available, or at least get in the discussion with a broader circle of people. I think embedded in Polanyi is a certain notion of moral agency.


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mullins: And we really haven't, laid that out


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mullins: very clearly. And of course, it's all tied up with evolution and with the emergence of human beings and this whole theme about emergence, which people like Charlie have been working on.


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mullins: I really think we need to, sort of help people by, in some ways, digging in and sorting out, some, more… somewhat more clearly how Polanyi thinks about, moral agency. And the other thing that I think, is really, in some ways more,


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mullins: sort of social and political. I think there's a moral vision in Polanyi of the good society and the good life. And, Paul, you do an excellent job of sort of unpacking, I think.


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mullins: what Polanyi sort of thinks about the good life, he thinks of it in terms of his experience in the scientific community as a discoverer, and that motif of discovering is a sort of,


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mullins: right in the middle of things, it seems to me. And he thinks that that happens in a certain in a society that's organized in a certain way. Now, Polanyi's notion of how society should be organized, I think is not likely to be very popular in the social and political discussions of today.


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mullins: So those are two areas that I think just might be worth mining.


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Paul Lewis: Yeah, yeah, I don't know where… quite where to begin.


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Paul Lewis: With all of that, Again, I've tried to set some pointers there.


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Paul Lewis: You know, another thing that comes to mind.


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Paul Lewis: 2, and maybe this is something… That takes me back to.


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Paul Lewis: The first question, why did we destroy Europe, but also part of moral agency. One of the things


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Paul Lewis: That we need to remember is that evolutionarily, we're primates.


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Paul Lewis: We've got a primate heritage, and what primatologists have found out is that primates are really good at in-group cohesion and really bad at.


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Paul Lewis: Cooperating without groups.


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Paul Lewis: And so, Where we draw those lines between in and out, I think, are important.


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Paul Lewis: And I was gonna go somewhere with that, and I just lost it, so… But I guess.


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Allen Dyer: I checked that.


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Paul Lewis: Go ahead.


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Allen Dyer: I take that to be an important insight, because the whole question of evolution and emergence is both philosophical and biological, and the primate


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Allen Dyer: reminder, is a description of the world that we live in, and the experience that perplexes us, I think, perplexes us all at this moment in time.


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Paul Lewis: Well, and I think it's, it's, it's part of our embodiment, too.


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Paul Lewis: in many ways, and probably ways that we can't completely trace out. And so what…


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Paul Lewis: What becomes, you know, and…


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Paul Lewis: I think we still have a tendency to think in polarities, right? We're either prone to violence, or we're prone to cooperation. No, we're prone to both, and probably a lot of other things, too.


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Paul Lewis: And so the question, I think the real question is, what triggers cooperation? What triggers.


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Paul Lewis: triggers violence, you know, and it's usually some form of threat.


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Paul Lewis: And I think it's…


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Paul Lewis: You know, it's fairly obvious to say that a lot of people feel under threat these days.


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Paul Lewis: different groups feel like… I mean, some groups feel under threat.


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Paul Lewis: because of DEI stuff. Other groups feel under threat because of the dissolution of democratic norms.


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Paul Lewis: You know, and that's going to increase potentially violent behavior.


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Paul Lewis: And I don't know, you know, one of the things


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Paul Lewis: that… and probably somebody has written on this, and I'm just not familiar with it.


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Paul Lewis: But the question why we destroyed Europe.


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Paul Lewis: Certainly there are ideas involved, but what about the institutions?


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Paul Lewis: that enabled this.


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Paul Lewis: You know, World War II is in part


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Paul Lewis: a product of the Treaty of… after World War I.


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Paul Lewis: People are jumping around on my screen. I'm getting lost here. Right. So what are the institutions and practices that carry these ideas and perpetuate them?


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Paul Lewis: You know, lots been written about how conservative think tanks have influenced current Republican politics.


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Paul Lewis: I don't know. I think that's an important part of this too. And I see a bunch of hands. I don't know who was first.


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Gus Breytspraak: Yeah, Craig, I can't, and there are two others, and then we can get back to Mary again.


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Craig Wickstrom: Yeah, I just had a question, you know, what if… what if trying to develop a Polanyian ethics is a mistake?


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Craig Wickstrom: Maybe we just need to see Polanyi as a tool, his thinking as a tool to developing ethics. I mean, that's what you described, Paul, is how you use Polanyi.


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Craig Wickstrom: And maybe the complexity is such that developing a quote-unquote Polanyi and ethics.


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Craig Wickstrom: Is… a mistake?


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Craig Wickstrom: Perhaps? I mean, I don't know what a Polanyian ethics would be.


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Craig Wickstrom: I mean, yeah, I'm not an ethicist, so I don't know, you know, do you… can you define an ethics, this… this kind of an ethics, and that kind of an ethics, and… and so on, so…


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Craig Wickstrom: Anyways, that's a question.


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Paul Lewis: Yeah, I mean…


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Paul Lewis: I see Polanyi, you know, if the traditional classifications of ethics are deontological, teleological, or erotaic, you know.


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Paul Lewis: duty-centered, consequence-centered, or virtue-centered. I think Polanyi's better fits with a virtue ethic or a character ethic than anything else. But…


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Paul Lewis: Proponents of those ethics tend to all get all snobby and criticize each other. And I think Polani says it really helps us figure out hey, all of these things are important. Who we are is important.


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Paul Lewis: The principles that we discern are relevant to a situation are important. Calculating consequence is important. All this stuff is important.


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Paul Lewis: And it can't be decided in advance. It's got to be focused on finding what's the fitting response to whatever situation we're talking about. I think Polanyi helps.


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Paul Lewis: Bring about a more comprehensive ethic.


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Gus Breytspraak: Duane, and then, Mary, and then I have… I can't raise my hand, but I have a question, too, so… Duane?


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Duane Lookingbill: Yes, you know, Phil was talking about taking Polanyi seriously, and, I think another


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Duane Lookingbill: Aspect of that is,


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Duane Lookingbill: You know, you mentioned that Polanyi's difficult or complicated, but it's.


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Duane Lookingbill: Maybe he's more radical than we're prepared at first.


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Duane Lookingbill: to receive And, how do you…


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Duane Lookingbill: Is that a… is that a first foot forward radicality? Doesn't that… is that.


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Duane Lookingbill: An incite… an inciting of… of this convivial.


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Duane Lookingbill: Engagement, or is that… is that… Is that.


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Duane Lookingbill: to, obscure, or… I don't know that it would be fair to say it's off-putting, but…


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Duane Lookingbill: Is it… is the whole business that there's…


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Duane Lookingbill: Sort of like a loss of… of,


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Duane Lookingbill: what comes before us, and that when we only talk about what's come after what's come before us, we were sort of dislocated, displaced. And we don't really know


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Duane Lookingbill: What a radical approach to our situation.


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Duane Lookingbill: You know, is, and… and how do you… how do you communicate


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Duane Lookingbill: Something to someone if they don't know


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Duane Lookingbill: What it is, I mean, you can get them to question, what is it?


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Duane Lookingbill: But how do you… I mean, is there something… do you follow me at all?


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Duane Lookingbill: He's more radical, and that does something to us. And that's… I don't know if that's a problem or not. Certainly, war is a problem, but how do you get people to say, we have a problem with war? Why do we keep suppressing that, or why do we keep ignoring that, or why do we keep making light of that?


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Duane Lookingbill: And, you can get engagement.


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Duane Lookingbill: But… But the problem solving is going to be more complicated and more radical than I think at first.


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Duane Lookingbill: We're gonna take…


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Paul Lewis: Yeah.


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Paul Lewis: Although part of me wishes that we would just focus on.


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Paul Lewis: Problem solving.


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Paul Lewis: Right? We get too ideological.


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Paul Lewis: In, in many ways.


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Paul Lewis: And again, I don't remember if I mentioned it in this piece or somewhere else. I mean, Toulmin and Johnson, in their book, The Abuse of Casuistry.


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Paul Lewis: talk about.


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Paul Lewis: I'm guessing it was Johnson, I don't remember who it was, was on a national panel doing bioeth… setting bioethics policy.


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Paul Lewis: And the short version, at least my memory without looking at the text in a long time, the short version is, you know, this was a diverse group of people, Democrats, Republicans, liberals, conservatives, religious, non-religious, all over the map.


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Paul Lewis: And if they… concentrated on solving a particular problem. They could come to agreement.


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Paul Lewis: Once they started talking about why they thought X, Y, or Z was the right course of action, then all hell broke loose, because then all these different, theoretical, philosophical, theological convictions came out, and none of them would necessarily cohere. So then you end up trying to


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Paul Lewis: convince everybody of the… of the specific ground, that, you know, we all have to agree theoretically in order to… to say, hey, look.


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Paul Lewis: We need to have a better way of, distributing water out west.


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Gus Breytspraak: Charlie.


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Charles Lowney: Yeah.


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Charles Lowney: I, I enjoyed reading your piece. I think it gives a nice, desiderata for.


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Charles Lowney: or what a systematic ethics would look like. I have been working on one.


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Paul Lewis: I know you have.


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Charles Lowney: And.


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Paul Lewis: I can't wait to see it.


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Charles Lowney: I've got the three papers that you described that start


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Charles Lowney: start with Polanyi and the idea of scientific communities, and


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Charles Lowney: the kind of base in Aristotelianism, because with the idea of tacit knowledge works a lot like phronesis, or practical wisdom.


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Paul Lewis: Yep.


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Charles Lowney: And the importance of the community and developing skills.


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Charles Lowney: And discovery and seeking answers through. Yep.


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Charles Lowney: convivial discussion.


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Charles Lowney: So with those three papers, I start… started with it, looking at from science, basically his roots in the scientific community, just like you say in your paper, this is an important piece of Polanyi where it needs to start.


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Charles Lowney: And then where it diverges, and I mean, I call it emergentist ethics, because I think, you know, you look for better ways of being and better ways of being together, and that's the moral discovery that you make.


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Charles Lowney: I've worked on it through another paper on authenticity and the reconciliation of modernity.


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Charles Lowney: That's, that's another piece of it. And my work on, on Rawls, and this idea of comprehensive moral doctrines as far as visions of the good.


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Paul Lewis: Hmm.


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Charles Lowney: That comes in as well.


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Charles Lowney: And my work on, spirituality and another


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Charles Lowney: Type of morality that complements the kind of developing conventional naturalist kind into a transnatural sort of.


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Charles Lowney: because of who we are as full human beings, there's this other… other approach, too, through not… not necessarily… and this… this goes to, what Mary said about words not


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Charles Lowney: Not latching on to the same meanings throughout, because if you're in one comprehensive moral doctrine and system.


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Charles Lowney: And it has… it has its… just in science, like in science, it has its anomalies, things that don't quite fit, and you discover a better way of being, like.


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Charles Lowney: all men are equal are, like, literally all men, right? And then you find out, wait a minute.


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Charles Lowney: all human beings are. You change the understanding of the word man and the doctrine with the new


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Charles Lowney: Comprehensive view, a comprehensive morality that, right, without necessarily changing the words, and that can


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Charles Lowney: That can increase ambiguity, just like the word love can mean different things. It can be a selfish love, it can be agape, it can be… Right? Depending on the moral system you're rooted in.


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Charles Lowney: So I have this idea of.


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Charles Lowney: of emergentism, and I'm putting together


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Charles Lowney: what I hope will be a systematic.


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Charles Lowney: Polanyi ethic based on tacit knowledge and emergentism that he… he does, and I mean, it provides a great meta-ethic, and maybe this is part of the…


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Charles Lowney: why people say, well, can you really have an ethic in Polanyi, because


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Charles Lowney: His epistemology gives us a meta-ethic, or how we approach and get to ethics.


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Charles Lowney: But he also has his own, as Bill mentioned, his own, and you mentioned, his own vision of what the human being is and looks like, and


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Charles Lowney: that…


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Charles Lowney: that morphs into a particular ethic. And I think, like Paul said, I think from Polanyi's perspective, when you take seriously tacit knowing, when you take seriously emergentism.


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Charles Lowney: And this idea of telec fields and forces pulling us forward.


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Charles Lowney: You've got, you've got a way where you understand how deontological ethics, duty ethics, the law.


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Charles Lowney: How, utilitarian ethics and consequentialist ethics, and how virtue ethics, and how even sentimental sentiment theory, right?


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Charles Lowney: all come together, and, like, you've got each piece of the elephants that have been separated into different systems of ethics, so I think


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Charles Lowney: I think Polanyi does give you a more comprehensive view.


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Charles Lowney: And, and I've been, you know, talking about this with the Kansas City group.


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Charles Lowney: And, they've been giving me some feedback about


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Charles Lowney: elements that need to be there in order to develop a complete systematic view, and I think Paul's piece also does that. It gives me…


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Charles Lowney: I look at, okay, I've got to discuss the moral vision, I've got to discuss


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Charles Lowney: other areas of the map. But, I'm working on it, and, and.


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Charles Lowney: I don't know if it'll be definitive, but I should have a systematic


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Charles Lowney: Ethics from Science to Spirituality is the… is the tentative name of the book.


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Charles Lowney: Hopefully before the… End of next year.


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Gus Breytspraak: So.


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Charles Lowney: Wow.


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Gus Breytspraak: Paul, do you want to?


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Gus Breytspraak: respond to that. I have a question while we're waiting for, for Charlie's book about.


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Gus Breytspraak: One that's out there, and whether it would be appropriate


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Gus Breytspraak: For newbies, but did you have anything to respond?


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Paul Lewis: I just, you know, I…


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Paul Lewis: I, salute Charlie that work. I see it very much akin to all of my interests.


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Paul Lewis: And like I said, I look forward to reading the finished product.


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Paul Lewis: You know.


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Gus Breytspraak: So, my question, Paul, relates to the second big category of, of.


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Gus Breytspraak: the moral agent, and whether it would be understandable to your, to your students any longer. But, what about… and because Mel isn't here, and he's written a couple of books on this, of course, but what about H. Richard Niebuhr and the responsible self?


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Gus Breytspraak: Not a sort of systematic, but a fairly systematic overview of the


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Gus Breytspraak: of the self as moral agent. Is that compatible with Polanyi, and would that be understandable today to today's students?


352
00:44:12.913 --> 00:44:18.472
Paul Lewis: It's interesting you mention that book, because I'm teaching it right now in our junior-senior colloquium.


353
00:44:18.843 --> 00:44:26.762
Paul Lewis: And it's a hard read, for the students. Yeah. But they… they do resonate with.


354
00:44:27.093 --> 00:44:33.073
Paul Lewis: His questions, you know, about unity of self, you know, the… the… the…


355
00:44:33.753 --> 00:44:36.943
Paul Lewis: The challenge is getting them to think that we're all not just


356
00:44:37.223 --> 00:44:51.043
Paul Lewis: socially determined, right? That, no, there's still an… there's still a self, there's still an I, there's still an agency there, with what… how we respond to things. And at least from the conversation so far.


357
00:44:51.343 --> 00:44:57.162
Paul Lewis: that seems to… I see some light bulbs coming on there, right? I have some…


358
00:44:58.063 --> 00:45:03.093
Paul Lewis: agency over how I respond to all the actions that impinge upon me.


359
00:45:03.933 --> 00:45:04.723
Paul Lewis: No.


360
00:45:05.103 --> 00:45:13.243
Gus Breytspraak: But also, incorporating the, man the maker and, man the, you know, giving, giving.


361
00:45:13.343 --> 00:45:17.812
Gus Breytspraak: The, the tradition and the, and the answers that have been.


362
00:45:17.963 --> 00:45:22.583
Gus Breytspraak: Been discovered, and incorporating that into the fitting response.


363
00:45:22.863 --> 00:45:23.433
Paul Lewis: Yeah.


364
00:45:24.773 --> 00:45:28.453
Gus Breytspraak: So it's fairly systematic in a sense.


365
00:45:28.993 --> 00:45:37.153
Paul Lewis: Yeah, yeah. And Niebuhr alludes to Polanyi in that book. I don't remember if he quotes Polanyi or cites.


366
00:45:37.153 --> 00:45:43.813
Gus Breytspraak: I think he does once or twice, but we know from, from Mel's.


367
00:45:44.193 --> 00:45:56.813
Gus Breytspraak: first-person experience with him in those last years, as well as his research, that he was, certainly, quite interested in Polanyi.


368
00:45:57.183 --> 00:45:59.602
Gus Breytspraak: As he was working on that.


369
00:45:59.903 --> 00:46:09.882
Paul Lewis: Yeah. And, you know, I'm probably more explicitly influenced by Niebuhr and Niebuhr's student Gustafson when it comes to ethics.


370
00:46:09.883 --> 00:46:10.483
Allen Dyer: you.


371
00:46:10.483 --> 00:46:19.192
Paul Lewis: than Polanyi, although I first read Niebuhr in… as a senior in college in Phil's class, and I, you know, as…


372
00:46:19.843 --> 00:46:31.432
Paul Lewis: he was helping me deprogram from a lot of stuff, and he kept saying, well, you know, Polanyi helps out with this, too. So, you know, Phil kind of snuck Polanyi in, as an undergraduate there.


373
00:46:32.143 --> 00:46:33.073
Paul Lewis: Yeah.


374
00:46:33.073 --> 00:46:39.142
Gus Breytspraak: Well, I'm glad to hear it's still being read in the college classroom. Alan, you getting ready to say something?


375
00:46:39.863 --> 00:46:58.802
Allen Dyer: Yeah, well, what I wanted to say, going back to my newbie question, and I think some light bulbs went off for me in this, is that the question underlying the whole question about ethics, systematic or implicit or tacit or virtue, is


376
00:46:58.813 --> 00:47:09.082
Allen Dyer: how do we think about people who want to be moral? And one of the things for people who want to be moral is how do we deal with people when the sociopaths


377
00:47:09.133 --> 00:47:19.622
Allen Dyer: are taking over, and we have to figure out how to deal with them. So, and I think the… these wonderful discussions about


378
00:47:19.833 --> 00:47:30.372
Allen Dyer: What you're all doing in classrooms is sort of an invitation to transcend self-interest with a broader vision of what morality is.


379
00:47:33.973 --> 00:47:41.862
Paul Lewis: Yeah, it… Again, this is… this is gonna sound…


380
00:47:41.993 --> 00:47:44.253
Paul Lewis: I don't know how this is gonna sound, but…


381
00:47:44.753 --> 00:47:54.113
Paul Lewis: I'm teaching this semester, I mean, liberal arts context, I teach a little bit of everything. So I'm teaching engaging the Hebrew Bible.


382
00:47:54.153 --> 00:48:06.393
Paul Lewis: But I've layered onto Hebrew Bible the psychology of moral development, and particularly the work of James Rest and Darshan Arvaez and others.


383
00:48:06.443 --> 00:48:09.352
Paul Lewis: to talk about, if you read the Hebrew Bible.


384
00:48:09.473 --> 00:48:19.103
Paul Lewis: in a naive sort of way, law, prophets, writings. It invites us into a process of moral development, to put aside self-interest.


385
00:48:19.103 --> 00:48:32.533
Paul Lewis: to start focusing on social norms, but self-interest tends to distort social norms and everything. And so, eventually, it points us towards wisdom. If you read the writings.


386
00:48:32.543 --> 00:48:34.422
Paul Lewis: It's the most…


387
00:48:34.653 --> 00:48:51.003
Paul Lewis: diverse, argumentative section of the Hebrew Bible. There's almost no agreement among the writers of the books or in the writings. And so I set it up as a series of debates. You know, what do we do?


388
00:48:51.463 --> 00:49:00.282
Paul Lewis: How do we respond to God after the exile? Well, I think in the book of Job, Job walks away from God at the end. Ecclesiastes.


389
00:49:00.743 --> 00:49:07.302
Paul Lewis: tip your hat to God, but just, you know, grab the most… get the most out of it that you can.


390
00:49:07.383 --> 00:49:21.362
Paul Lewis: Song of Songs ignores God completely, right? How do you connect to a god after you have, gone through a horrible experience like exile? Or, what do you do when people are out to get you?


391
00:49:21.903 --> 00:49:29.463
Paul Lewis: if you take the… just take the Book of Esther at face value, you outwit the system and kill the SOBs before they kill you.


392
00:49:30.193 --> 00:49:33.772
Paul Lewis: If you pay attention to Daniel, you.


393
00:49:34.063 --> 00:49:38.572
Paul Lewis: You practice non-violent civil disobedience and let God take care of it in the afterlife.


394
00:49:38.813 --> 00:49:44.673
Paul Lewis: All right? And this is all stuff that's coming out of the debates as the Jewish people


395
00:49:44.963 --> 00:49:53.333
Paul Lewis: are going under, they're under Persian rule, and especially under the Greeks, under Antiochus.


396
00:49:53.963 --> 00:50:04.952
Paul Lewis: epiphanies, which I think is when Esther and Daniel are written as competing voices, right? And so, in many ways, the writings tell us, okay, how do we live


397
00:50:05.093 --> 00:50:13.112
Paul Lewis: How do we live in a world in which we're getting all kinds of competing advice from all kinds of competing sources and incompatible sources?


398
00:50:13.903 --> 00:50:21.323
Paul Lewis: Well, if you back up to Proverbs, that's where wisdom says, Hey, I'm setting a banquet for you. Come listen to me. We need wisdom.


399
00:50:21.573 --> 00:50:27.333
Paul Lewis: To live in this cacophonous world where nobody seems to agree on much of anything.


400
00:50:27.913 --> 00:50:33.142
Paul Lewis: And maybe that's… Part of the way to just recognize that.


401
00:50:33.903 --> 00:50:37.303
Paul Lewis: we do… this is the world we live in, I think.


402
00:50:37.423 --> 00:50:45.632
Paul Lewis: you know, the… the Wisdom literature represents the culture wars, so to speak, of post-exilic Judaism.


403
00:50:47.033 --> 00:50:54.242
Paul Lewis: And how do we make sense of that, and start raising those questions? And it raises the epistemological questions of.


404
00:50:55.133 --> 00:51:07.802
Paul Lewis: You know, what is truth, and what to do if your truth is different than my truth, which is basically where most college freshmen are. They're just… one of my friends likes to call them rampaging relativists.


405
00:51:09.483 --> 00:51:28.133
Paul Lewis: Right? And I also tell them, at least according to William Perry's theory, it's only by your junior or senior year that you're maybe starting to be willing to consider that there might be truths and convictions out there that I have to affirm for my own integrity.


406
00:51:28.363 --> 00:51:30.373
Paul Lewis: In a messy world.


407
00:51:30.713 --> 00:51:34.143
Paul Lewis: So it's an interesting developmental process.


408
00:51:38.013 --> 00:51:39.033
Allen Dyer: Wow.


409
00:51:39.723 --> 00:51:40.313
Allen Dyer: the.


410
00:51:44.633 --> 00:51:45.173
Craig Wickstrom: Yeah.


411
00:51:45.663 --> 00:51:47.493
Allen Dyer: I'd like to sign up for that course.


412
00:51:47.493 --> 00:51:47.993
Charles Lowney: Okay.


413
00:51:49.723 --> 00:51:50.882
Charles Lowney: Sounds like a great one.


414
00:51:51.473 --> 00:51:55.763
Allen Dyer: I've just put your two books on, or two or three on my list.


415
00:51:58.773 --> 00:52:02.222
Charles Lowney: What's the name of the James Rest book that you use?


416
00:52:03.763 --> 00:52:17.382
Paul Lewis: There's not a particular book, but there's a… usually it's… actually, the book that I have them read a chapter out of about rest is Elizabeth Vazzola's.


417
00:52:17.833 --> 00:52:18.603
Paul Lewis: Both.


418
00:52:22.803 --> 00:52:25.753
Paul Lewis: called Moral Development Theory and Applications.


419
00:52:27.753 --> 00:52:35.052
Paul Lewis: She was here as a speaker, as a speaker at Mercer a few years ago. She and I had a fun conversation.


420
00:52:36.673 --> 00:52:51.072
Paul Lewis: And one of the things that strikes me about psychology, my undergraduate degree is in psychology, and moral development has been an interest to me for a long time. The people who do the psychology of moral development don't really talk to the people who are doing the psychology of wisdom.


421
00:52:51.543 --> 00:52:52.973
Paul Lewis: Right,


422
00:52:53.583 --> 00:53:02.042
Paul Lewis: Sternberg, Baltes and Stavenger, and, you know, a whole bunch of other people. It'd be really interesting to see more of that, and Vizzola thought, well, that's right.


423
00:53:02.152 --> 00:53:06.643
Paul Lewis: Because she sort of hints at that direction in this book.


424
00:53:07.413 --> 00:53:08.163
Paul Lewis: Yeah.


425
00:53:08.553 --> 00:53:10.783
Allen Dyer: So there's… there's one…


426
00:53:11.723 --> 00:53:23.832
Allen Dyer: cute little story, I think, about an exchange I had with James Rest a number of years ago, looking at moral development. And he talks about, and this is a question for education, is can


427
00:53:23.833 --> 00:53:34.883
Allen Dyer: Through reading philosophy and thinking about moral development, can you help people move from a more conventional stage to a more post-conventional stage, more based on


428
00:53:35.232 --> 00:53:41.403
Allen Dyer: universal principles. And… and there are two groups of


429
00:53:41.713 --> 00:53:50.543
Allen Dyer: people who score very high on RESC's defining issues test, based on Kohlberg theories. And one is.


430
00:53:52.133 --> 00:54:05.313
Allen Dyer: and I'm hesitating in terms of which to say first. One is Methodist ministers. They score very… they score very high, as you would hope they would. The other group is prison psychopaths.


431
00:54:05.703 --> 00:54:25.332
Allen Dyer: People who have sort of figured out, but not quite figured out, how to game the system by thinking about it. And of course, the thing that I would say in James Rest's defense, and I think that he said, you know, when I pointed this out to him, is that these are very small groups and small numbers of people.


432
00:54:25.333 --> 00:54:31.763
Allen Dyer: that the generalizations are well worth considering. But this is kind of a…


433
00:54:32.033 --> 00:54:40.793
Allen Dyer: Shall we say a paradox that these two such diverse groups of people end up scoring both scoring very well on the defining issues test.


434
00:54:41.023 --> 00:54:41.693
Paul Lewis: Yeah.


435
00:54:41.753 --> 00:54:59.542
Paul Lewis: It makes me think… I've read a reference somewhere, and I've never been actually able to find the actual article, if it exists, but somebody did a parody one time. Rest is based on Kohlberg's theory of moral development. Kohlberg has 6 stages and 3 levels.


436
00:54:59.543 --> 00:55:12.462
Paul Lewis: And, at least at some point, as I understand it, Kohlberg almost despaired of Stage 6, because there weren't very many people that scored it, or something like that. Yeah. But.


437
00:55:12.603 --> 00:55:19.613
Paul Lewis: Someone wrote an article, a parody article, that said, how to reason at stage 6 and still be a son of a bitch.


438
00:55:22.083 --> 00:55:27.583
Paul Lewis: You know, we can… we can always rationalize something. And this is… this is part of what


439
00:55:27.913 --> 00:55:31.353
Paul Lewis: As I understand it, motivated rest. I know…


440
00:55:31.693 --> 00:55:38.523
Paul Lewis: I know Darshan Arvaez, who was one of REST students, and then his, his wife.


441
00:55:40.313 --> 00:55:45.333
Paul Lewis: You know, how do we… how do we get this… how do we bridge this gap between.


442
00:55:45.813 --> 00:55:49.333
Paul Lewis: Really sophisticated moral reasoning and really bad behavior.


443
00:55:49.633 --> 00:56:03.602
Paul Lewis: And that's where REST's four-component model came in. It's not just reasoning, but you've got to have sensitivity, you've got to have awareness, you've got to have motivation, you've got to care, and then you've got to have certain character dispositions.


444
00:56:04.143 --> 00:56:13.313
Paul Lewis: you know, it seems to me that, going back to Charlie and Aristotle, I think the psychologists are figuring out that Aristotle is… is righter than.


445
00:56:13.573 --> 00:56:16.153
Paul Lewis: A lot of us thought for a long time.


446
00:56:20.483 --> 00:56:24.052
Craig Wickstrom: Mary, Mary had a had something a long time ago.


447
00:56:24.053 --> 00:56:25.713
marymoodey: It was Dick. Me.


448
00:56:25.713 --> 00:56:26.193
Paul Lewis: Oh.


449
00:56:26.193 --> 00:56:27.423
Craig Wickstrom: Oh, it was Dick. Okay.


450
00:56:27.423 --> 00:56:37.472
marymoodey: Yeah, I… people have been talking around this and saying, I want to put it more bluntly than what I think has been put so far, and that is.


451
00:56:38.253 --> 00:56:44.522
marymoodey: Even the best… system of ethics, whether it's Polanyian or not.


452
00:56:44.963 --> 00:56:49.962
marymoodey: has very little effect upon the actions that political leaders take.


453
00:56:50.373 --> 00:56:51.823
marymoodey: And…


454
00:56:52.133 --> 00:57:04.753
marymoodey: You know, Alan talks about the sociopaths among us, and one of the things that is characteristics of sociopaths or psychopaths is that they are much more strongly


455
00:57:05.023 --> 00:57:09.032
marymoodey: motivated to seek political leadership.


456
00:57:09.333 --> 00:57:11.353
marymoodey: than empaths.


457
00:57:12.183 --> 00:57:24.092
marymoodey: And so one of the things that we're looking at right now in the world is that we've got a lot of the lead, a lot of the political leaders in the world are functioning psychopaths or sociopaths.


458
00:57:24.323 --> 00:57:26.812
marymoodey: They don't care about ethics.


459
00:57:27.413 --> 00:57:27.933
Paul Lewis: Bye-bye.


460
00:57:27.933 --> 00:57:32.583
marymoodey: They simply don't care about ethics, and they have a tremendous amount of power. And, you know.


461
00:57:32.803 --> 00:57:48.802
marymoodey: I'm not disparaging the effort to write better ethical systems. I think that's important. I'm not putting that down. What I'm saying is that no matter how good they are, they're not going to have much effect upon whether or not we destroy our world, or whether or not people


462
00:57:49.393 --> 00:57:58.662
marymoodey: destroyed in Polanyi's terms, destroyed Europe. You know, those were political actions that destroyed Europe, not the result of not good enough ethical systems.


463
00:58:02.333 --> 00:58:03.513
Charles Lowney: Hi, Charlie.


464
00:58:03.903 --> 00:58:19.593
Charles Lowney: I would just say that, I agree with Dick, but as long as you can keep the political leaders accountable, then you have some chance of having them behave ethically, because they want to stay in power.


465
00:58:19.913 --> 00:58:21.043
Charles Lowney: It's when…


466
00:58:21.613 --> 00:58:34.052
Charles Lowney: Society develops to the point where they can stay in power without being accountable to the general population that might be persuaded by ethics as well as their own interests.


467
00:58:34.343 --> 00:58:41.653
Charles Lowney: that you can have some control over the psychopaths in power. I mean, they don't… They…


468
00:58:42.093 --> 00:58:48.643
Charles Lowney: They have to be accountable somehow, and the worry is that we're moving towards a kind of government with


469
00:58:48.843 --> 00:58:57.323
Charles Lowney: AI and propaganda that insulates the psychopathic leaders with their egoistic self-interest from


470
00:58:57.623 --> 00:59:03.253
Charles Lowney: Being accountable, because they can manipulate the situation in such a way where they can always


471
00:59:03.423 --> 00:59:09.063
Charles Lowney: Get their will instead of the moral will of the people instantiated.


472
00:59:09.413 --> 00:59:09.942
marymoodey: I agree.


473
00:59:09.943 --> 00:59:10.753
Charles Lowney: I agree.


474
00:59:10.753 --> 00:59:11.193
marymoodey: know.


475
00:59:11.193 --> 00:59:11.863
Paul Lewis: Yeah, and I…


476
00:59:11.863 --> 00:59:12.333
Charles Lowney: the.


477
00:59:12.333 --> 00:59:13.463
Paul Lewis: And I want to say that.


478
00:59:13.463 --> 00:59:14.163
Charles Lowney: the.


479
00:59:14.163 --> 00:59:20.913
Paul Lewis: You know, there are certainly any system has its limits, but to the extent that it gives us


480
00:59:21.513 --> 00:59:26.763
Paul Lewis: A vision of… Flourishing? Do you… going back to…


481
00:59:26.993 --> 00:59:32.722
Paul Lewis: kind of an Aristotelian language, you know, a vision of flourishing, a vision of, of.


482
00:59:33.033 --> 00:59:40.282
Paul Lewis: A universe, or at least an ecosystem that's working well so that all the parts of it can thrive.


483
00:59:41.623 --> 00:59:55.802
Paul Lewis: and can give a motivation to that, I think systems have value. No system will ever be able to give us an algorithm to say, this is the right thing to do at this period of time. So systems


484
00:59:56.113 --> 00:59:56.953
Paul Lewis: Yep.


485
00:59:57.123 --> 01:00:04.343
Paul Lewis: Steve Fehr & clearly have their limits, but I also think they have their value. I think, you know, talking politics right now, the…


486
01:00:04.783 --> 01:00:08.542
Paul Lewis: The thing that scares me, or worries me, or makes me…


487
01:00:08.693 --> 01:00:11.293
Paul Lewis: Wonder about all these things, you know.


488
01:00:11.623 --> 01:00:13.912
Paul Lewis: Why the checks and balances?


489
01:00:14.503 --> 01:00:18.543
Paul Lewis: That have been built into democracy, why they're… they're failing.


490
01:00:18.983 --> 01:00:25.663
Paul Lewis: And I wonder if part of it is, again, that we have not, adequately


491
01:00:26.303 --> 01:00:31.633
Paul Lewis: brought new generations into the virtues necessary to maintain.


492
01:00:31.773 --> 01:00:45.522
Paul Lewis: democracy, and Jeff Stout talks about democracy as a series of practices of, giving… asking questions and giving answers in convivial sorts of ways. And somewhere along the way.


493
01:00:45.693 --> 01:00:55.702
Paul Lewis: the institutions that fostered that have cracked and shattered, or at least cracked, maybe shattered, I don't know. Some of them maybe hold.


494
01:00:55.853 --> 01:00:58.342
Paul Lewis: That's why… Yeah, go ahead.


495
01:00:58.343 --> 01:01:01.562
mullins: John Hess has got his hand up and,


496
01:01:02.063 --> 01:01:08.312
mullins: I want to be sure he gets in there. Remember, John has lived in Poland for 30 years, and.


497
01:01:11.123 --> 01:01:18.663
jphess: Yeah, I guess what I was… thinking in… in the discussion.


498
01:01:19.513 --> 01:01:26.572
jphess: On… I'm going back to my dissertation and also my experience here in this part of the world.


499
01:01:27.623 --> 01:01:30.983
jphess: But… There were no systems.


500
01:01:32.033 --> 01:01:34.673
jphess: Accept absolute power.


501
01:01:35.023 --> 01:01:35.713
Paul Lewis: if we…


502
01:01:36.233 --> 01:01:42.182
jphess: When you read about the Hungarian Revolution and what happened in the years prior to that, it was


503
01:01:42.303 --> 01:01:47.033
jphess: The most devoted, maybe I should say devout communists.


504
01:01:47.633 --> 01:01:50.232
jphess: Who suddenly found themselves.


505
01:01:51.183 --> 01:01:52.523
jphess: In the can.


506
01:01:52.623 --> 01:01:55.393
jphess: And it was not very nice.


507
01:01:57.073 --> 01:02:00.282
jphess: And in that process.


508
01:02:03.063 --> 01:02:05.783
jphess: Some of them had lights come on.


509
01:02:08.123 --> 01:02:11.953
jphess: And when they got… when they got released later.


510
01:02:12.813 --> 01:02:16.993
jphess: on They began to connect with one another.


511
01:02:17.473 --> 01:02:22.752
jphess: But they had… they had, through this experience of the lights coming on.


512
01:02:23.323 --> 01:02:28.722
jphess: They had suddenly found freedom. It didn't matter about the political system.


513
01:02:29.333 --> 01:02:30.802
jphess: They were free.


514
01:02:33.873 --> 01:02:42.552
jphess: And… That kind of just went… It kind of had a.


515
01:02:42.963 --> 01:02:47.103
jphess: You know, a dynamo effect, you know, just the, the, they fell.


516
01:02:48.433 --> 01:02:51.952
jphess: And, When you read about


517
01:02:52.493 --> 01:02:59.293
jphess: You know, like, I think he mentions… Polanyi mentions this meeting that happened in front of the Congress of the


518
01:02:59.553 --> 01:03:01.443
jphess: of the writers.


519
01:03:01.553 --> 01:03:04.932
jphess: And thousands and thousands of people came there.


520
01:03:05.113 --> 01:03:08.572
jphess: And it's like the light was coming on.


521
01:03:10.213 --> 01:03:12.833
jphess: And, you know, I don't know how much.


522
01:03:13.453 --> 01:03:28.753
jphess: It's almost like they there was this exit, I can use the word existential experience people had where they suddenly rose above everything they had believed before because they were they hit the wall of reality.


523
01:03:31.483 --> 01:03:32.723
jphess: And…


524
01:03:34.483 --> 01:03:41.593
jphess: So my question is, how much of this goes down to, you know, elaborate systems and ethics and things like that, but…


525
01:03:41.973 --> 01:03:48.473
jphess: And they're in the in the long run, somehow people come up against moral reality.


526
01:03:49.223 --> 01:03:54.323
jphess: And I'm not going to define that, except I believe it exists.


527
01:03:57.193 --> 01:04:04.292
jphess: But that was really what happened. What happened in the Hungarian Revolution. But when we had the, you know, the.


528
01:04:04.763 --> 01:04:09.382
jphess: 89 autumn. It was just one right after the other.


529
01:04:09.493 --> 01:04:12.762
jphess: And I think people's lights came on.


530
01:04:13.983 --> 01:04:23.052
jphess: And they began to realize there's something… it wasn't that they saw the light, the lie, as much as they began to see the truth.


531
01:04:23.273 --> 01:04:23.833
Paul Lewis: you.


532
01:04:25.323 --> 01:04:27.032
jphess: That would be my remarks.


533
01:04:39.813 --> 01:04:42.542
Paul Lewis: That kind of makes me wonder.


534
01:04:46.783 --> 01:04:52.473
Paul Lewis: Are… are we at a… as a… culture.


535
01:04:53.353 --> 01:04:59.312
Paul Lewis: Is this part of the process of coming to what you call the wall of moral reality?


536
01:05:00.433 --> 01:05:04.863
Paul Lewis: And it… You kind of wonder.


537
01:05:05.913 --> 01:05:10.043
Paul Lewis: What's gonna happen when you get there, and how do you rebuild things afterwards?


538
01:05:13.393 --> 01:05:15.653
Allen Dyer: What occurs to me about


539
01:05:15.823 --> 01:05:26.403
Allen Dyer: that observation, John, and I think it's a very important one, looking back to the Hungarian Revolution and looking back to what's happened in Hungary more recently.


540
01:05:26.523 --> 01:05:38.363
Allen Dyer: Finally, after 16 years, getting rid of Orban. The way in which Polanyi might be helpful in terms of dealing with authoritarianism


541
01:05:38.843 --> 01:05:47.333
Allen Dyer: is the recognition… it's almost, to use a medical metaphor, it's almost like an inoculation. Once you have… have…


542
01:05:47.463 --> 01:05:55.713
Allen Dyer: imbued what Polanyi is trying to say, as a scientist, that the kind of objectivity


543
01:05:57.073 --> 01:06:07.752
Allen Dyer: is a false ideal, and we have to ask a more basic question. Why do we… how do we know what we know, and why do we believe what we believe? His reminder.


544
01:06:08.013 --> 01:06:09.053
Allen Dyer: that we…


545
01:06:09.163 --> 01:06:18.403
Allen Dyer: preface every declarative sentence with, I believe that, and when we see people doing just the opposite, trying to hoodwink us in some way or another with


546
01:06:18.893 --> 01:06:28.343
Allen Dyer: promoting things that we don't believe, and we don't think they believe, as if that's a reality. Then we're…


547
01:06:28.673 --> 01:06:32.073
Allen Dyer: We're more cautious, we're more skeptical.


548
01:06:40.563 --> 01:06:49.463
Charles Lowney: One… observation I had from the last time we, we, we met here with, Alan speaking.


549
01:06:49.683 --> 01:06:53.263
Charles Lowney: And we were talking about moral inversion, and the idea that


550
01:06:53.803 --> 01:06:57.793
Charles Lowney: It's not just on the right, it's on the left as well.


551
01:06:58.173 --> 01:07:05.162
Charles Lowney: Right? And there's kind of this battle of moral inversions, and they're the extremes, the extreme sides of both.


552
01:07:05.413 --> 01:07:15.123
Charles Lowney: And one, I think, key that I think Paul brought out when he talked about how no one can agree when we get down to the ideology part of it.


553
01:07:16.783 --> 01:07:17.833
Charles Lowney: Is that…


554
01:07:17.963 --> 01:07:29.993
Charles Lowney: There's a utopianism on both sides. There's the illusion of going to a nostalgic past that didn't exist, make America great again. Right? And that's a utopianism.


555
01:07:30.543 --> 01:07:31.603
Charles Lowney: That…


556
01:07:31.763 --> 01:07:42.043
Charles Lowney: Collects the moral passion on one side, and can lead to moral excesses, the undermining of democracy, etc, right?


557
01:07:42.803 --> 01:07:47.912
Charles Lowney: And on the other side, there's a utopianism of complete equality and equity.


558
01:07:48.163 --> 01:07:53.993
Charles Lowney: When we've got traditions and other things and limitations that need to be


559
01:07:54.183 --> 01:07:57.623
Charles Lowney: Limits on that, too, because,


560
01:07:58.113 --> 01:08:00.992
Charles Lowney: But if you have that utopianism and you don't…


561
01:08:01.243 --> 01:08:11.403
Charles Lowney: Don't recognize the value of the traditions that have values that are different, and allow them into the conversation, but want to override that, and just…


562
01:08:11.693 --> 01:08:29.572
Charles Lowney: push towards those ideals, and I think someone said it today, where DEI is considered a threat from the right side, and the, and I saw a car the other day with Dems are haters on it, driving down the highway, right? Then you… you can…


563
01:08:29.743 --> 01:08:45.093
Charles Lowney: use your moral passion on this side to override and say, well, we've gotta… we've gotta just eliminate that threat on the right, and tamp it down, and don't listen to them, and cut them off, and… and, what do you call it again when you don't…


564
01:08:45.293 --> 01:08:47.163
Charles Lowney: you, you… Oh.


565
01:08:47.633 --> 01:09:01.202
Charles Lowney: you diss them, or you cancel them, right? And that's the moral inversion threat on the left. So you've got moral inversion threats on the left and the right that need to be


566
01:09:01.893 --> 01:09:05.502
Charles Lowney: navigated in a morality that works.


567
01:09:08.143 --> 01:09:09.782
Craig Wickstrom: I think, I think that…


568
01:09:10.093 --> 01:09:19.123
Craig Wickstrom: The issue on both sides is, wanting to define reality in absolute terms. The idealism. You know.


569
01:09:19.123 --> 01:09:20.033
Charles Lowney: Oh, fine.


570
01:09:20.063 --> 01:09:20.703
Craig Wickstrom: Yeah.


571
01:09:20.703 --> 01:09:24.153
Paul Lewis: Or it's the ends justifies the means.


572
01:09:24.153 --> 01:09:24.583
Charles Lowney: Okay.


573
01:09:24.583 --> 01:09:32.432
Paul Lewis: You know, yeah, the utopianism, Fosters a kind of authoritarianism.


574
01:09:35.653 --> 01:09:44.353
Charles Lowney: Right? And one side sees it as, oh, the left are totalitarians, and the other side sees it, oh, the right are authoritarians.


575
01:09:44.573 --> 01:09:45.723
Charles Lowney: Dictators.


576
01:09:50.173 --> 01:09:51.443
Paul Lewis: The irony is that.


577
01:09:51.543 --> 01:09:53.993
Paul Lewis: You know, these days.


578
01:09:54.163 --> 01:10:03.062
Paul Lewis: The right wants to control speech just as much as they claim that the left wanted to control speech. And very few people appreciate the hypocrisy of that.


579
01:10:06.373 --> 01:10:14.432
jphess: I wonder… Two of a part of it is there needs to be… That whole sense of.


580
01:10:15.633 --> 01:10:19.823
jphess: Embracing the responsibility for our beliefs.


581
01:10:29.423 --> 01:10:33.123
marymoodey: I wanted to go back to something that Alan


582
01:10:33.223 --> 01:10:39.373
marymoodey: asked about long ago. I've been kind of keeping this in my back pocket, but I…


583
01:10:39.833 --> 01:10:42.352
marymoodey: He asked how to… how to… how…


584
01:10:42.893 --> 01:10:46.033
marymoodey: to induce introduce Polanyi to newbies.


585
01:10:46.973 --> 01:10:49.742
marymoodey: My experience in the classroom has been that


586
01:10:49.953 --> 01:10:58.772
marymoodey: Retelling the story that Polanyi tells about the called the paradigm of the traveler in sense giving and sense reading.


587
01:10:59.113 --> 01:11:03.342
marymoodey: is useful for introducing it. I retell it in terms


588
01:11:03.513 --> 01:11:07.762
marymoodey: Give the names to the traveler of Jack and the letter reader Jill.


589
01:11:08.103 --> 01:11:21.333
marymoodey: And so, when Jack travels to this new country and sees this, you know, hears church bells and sees villagers walking to a church, and then writes to Jill about this, when Jill reads his letter.


590
01:11:23.403 --> 01:11:40.382
marymoodey: she understands what Jack means by villagers and village church and hills and fields and that sort of thing, but the images that she has in her mind are not the images that Jack remembers from having seen them on that morning when he wrote. She has her own images, and so this is…


591
01:11:40.663 --> 01:11:48.663
marymoodey: This introduces people to tacit subsidiaries. The tacit subsidiaries that Jill uses to interpret Jack's letter


592
01:11:48.903 --> 01:12:02.552
marymoodey: are clearly different from the tacit subsidiaries that Jack used to… when he wrote his letter, and that this gets into, you know, the whole question of Polanyi's model of creating meaning.


593
01:12:04.943 --> 01:12:08.832
marymoodey: And students, students understand that that's it's simple.


594
01:12:09.723 --> 01:12:10.783
Gus Breytspraak: Good example.


595
01:12:12.403 --> 01:12:13.173
Gus Breytspraak: Oh, Mary.


596
01:12:13.173 --> 01:12:15.492
marymoodey: I yeah. I have a question.


597
01:12:17.343 --> 01:12:21.933
marymoodey: for Paul, and it goes back.


598
01:12:22.163 --> 01:12:30.433
marymoodey: To your working with students, freshmen, on self-awareness and…


599
01:12:30.553 --> 01:12:33.333
marymoodey: Could you…


600
01:12:33.533 --> 01:12:38.443
marymoodey: repeat that, because I just had an idea.


601
01:12:38.773 --> 01:12:44.212
marymoodey: I'm connecting the sense of self, but also self


602
01:12:44.353 --> 01:12:49.432
marymoodey: within the community or self as part of the community. And I,


603
01:12:49.933 --> 01:12:52.373
marymoodey: If I understand what you said.


604
01:12:53.153 --> 01:12:59.242
marymoodey: I just want to make sure I understand what you said in terms of your freshman students.


605
01:13:01.553 --> 01:13:11.543
Paul Lewis: I'm not sure I can remember exactly what you're talking about. I remember I said, you know, they, at least verbally, they talk as if they're rampaging relativists.


606
01:13:14.353 --> 01:13:16.903
Paul Lewis: And I… at different points.


607
01:13:17.033 --> 01:13:24.002
Paul Lewis: You know, I'll try to challenge their views and… and… and…


608
01:13:24.283 --> 01:13:27.923
Paul Lewis: Not in an… hopefully not in an.


609
01:13:29.543 --> 01:13:34.052
Paul Lewis: In a destructive sort of way, but just help them sort of think through now, okay.


610
01:13:34.603 --> 01:13:38.802
Paul Lewis: You think this is right, but isn't the person who you disagree with, aren't they.


611
01:13:39.093 --> 01:13:52.292
Paul Lewis: free to have their same beliefs, et cetera, et cetera, and then people usually go into, well, as long as it doesn't hurt you, well, what does it mean to hurt somebody? You know, there's a huge rabbit hole to go down.


612
01:13:53.033 --> 01:13:56.092
marymoodey: I was just thinking in in terms of


613
01:13:56.353 --> 01:14:00.062
marymoodey: what you said, Phil then asked


614
01:14:00.243 --> 01:14:05.972
marymoodey: I talked about moral agency and the idea of unity of self.


615
01:14:06.773 --> 01:14:21.302
marymoodey: And I was thinking, in reaching especially this generation of students For them, to understand, to have self-awareness.


616
01:14:21.693 --> 01:14:23.562
marymoodey: and be responsible


617
01:14:23.753 --> 01:14:34.852
marymoodey: take responsibility or accountability of self, but also put the self, not selfishness, but in the broader context of self within the community.


618
01:14:35.593 --> 01:14:46.743
marymoodey: One way they could retell these stories with sense giving and sense reading is if you were and I know you, you know, take out the.


619
01:14:47.293 --> 01:14:49.703
marymoodey: The computer in the class.


620
01:14:50.303 --> 01:14:54.823
marymoodey: But have an assignment where they all take selfies.


621
01:14:55.083 --> 01:14:57.802
marymoodey: But then they've got to create


622
01:14:57.973 --> 01:15:08.802
marymoodey: a selfie within the community? And then how do they weave these selfies together into a broader montage?


623
01:15:09.043 --> 01:15:09.643
Paul Lewis: Hmm.


624
01:15:09.643 --> 01:15:24.383
marymoodey: of self within a broader context, within the community, within the world, with taking responsibility of what one believes, but acknowledging the belief for the stories of the other.


625
01:15:24.533 --> 01:15:28.242
marymoodey: Because so much a part of under…


626
01:15:29.423 --> 01:15:35.693
marymoodey: understanding students and where they're coming from is to get to know their stories.


627
01:15:35.813 --> 01:15:36.653
marymoodey: And.


628
01:15:36.783 --> 01:15:47.582
marymoodey: And… especially when you're teaching in an environment so different from what you were raised in.


629
01:15:47.953 --> 01:15:51.492
marymoodey: Or what you're familiar with.


630
01:15:52.223 --> 01:16:01.713
marymoodey: when I taught at University of Pittsburgh there were. I had students who had never Pittsburgh is very neighborhoody.


631
01:16:01.863 --> 01:16:07.662
marymoodey: And… There were students who had never left their own.


632
01:16:08.243 --> 01:16:12.973
marymoodey: neighborhood within Pittsburgh until they came to the University.


633
01:16:13.543 --> 01:16:18.583
marymoodey: And that to me was just mind blowing that they hadn't stepped out of that.


634
01:16:18.883 --> 01:16:22.193
marymoodey: And so the… It.


635
01:16:22.303 --> 01:16:42.162
marymoodey: But that was an important story for me to understand, as well as then becoming a teacher of students in the inner city and knowing their stories and getting to understand them through their stories. It makes the self.


636
01:16:42.393 --> 01:16:43.253
Craig Wickstrom: Okay.


637
01:16:43.943 --> 01:16:45.263
marymoodey: Much broader.


638
01:16:45.263 --> 01:16:45.873
Paul Lewis: Who?


639
01:16:47.573 --> 01:16:48.343
Paul Lewis: Yeah.


640
01:16:49.953 --> 01:16:50.573
Charles Lowney: Yeah.


641
01:16:51.213 --> 01:16:52.133
Charles Lowney: I think…


642
01:16:52.433 --> 01:16:59.803
Charles Lowney: I don't know, hand raise, but I like what you said, Mary, and I think story is in…


643
01:17:00.033 --> 01:17:07.582
Charles Lowney: Parable, right, of the, of the… was the wanderer, the traveler.


644
01:17:08.343 --> 01:17:11.953
Charles Lowney: stories and parables, I think of the way


645
01:17:12.133 --> 01:17:20.872
Charles Lowney: to really connect, like Paul said, when you talk about practical issues, then you can get agreement, but the ideologies, diverge.


646
01:17:21.423 --> 01:17:23.693
Charles Lowney: With stories, we…


647
01:17:23.763 --> 01:17:38.313
Charles Lowney: I think it's Polanian to provide parables and stories, because they give you subsidiaries that you don't get in the ideology. They give you the form of life and way of being of a person where you can now understand


648
01:17:38.313 --> 01:17:44.222
Charles Lowney: the significance of the moral of the story in a better way. And so.


649
01:17:44.913 --> 01:17:49.573
Charles Lowney: I think… Bateson says… says this, but when we.


650
01:17:49.823 --> 01:18:06.352
Charles Lowney: when we see something as beautiful, it's because we share in the story of the other, right? We've got this idea of information, differences that make differences, and these information builds to stories, and stories and communication. But when we… I… when we connect with someone and see


651
01:18:07.123 --> 01:18:11.473
Charles Lowney: Resonate with their story, then… then, we're…


652
01:18:12.193 --> 01:18:16.883
Charles Lowney: We're open to hearing the other, and we're open to seeing


653
01:18:17.303 --> 01:18:27.893
Charles Lowney: that their story is something that we share as well, right? And that community idea that we're all part of the same story, rather than them being the out-group, right?


654
01:18:28.163 --> 01:18:32.593
Charles Lowney: So, and I think this is one of the reasons why that


655
01:18:32.823 --> 01:18:37.173
Charles Lowney: International, sort of, diplomacy by sharing arts.


656
01:18:37.463 --> 01:18:43.393
Charles Lowney: Is important, because that shares the stories of the culture, and you get to see them as people with values like us.


657
01:18:43.633 --> 01:18:51.743
Charles Lowney: Rather than as, as, as completely Foreign and alien and unknown.


658
01:18:52.793 --> 01:18:53.663
Charles Lowney: Okay.


659
01:18:56.443 --> 01:18:57.133
Gus Breytspraak: Appeal.


660
01:18:57.133 --> 01:18:57.883
Charles Lowney: Beautiful.


661
01:18:58.053 --> 01:19:04.963
mullins: One thing that I think Polanyi might be helpful for…


662
01:19:05.053 --> 01:19:17.952
mullins: The discussions of sort of moral and political matters in our time and culture is that Polanyi, of course, is terribly interested in the passions, and he has a lot to say about.


663
01:19:18.043 --> 01:19:29.623
mullins: moral passion, and he has a lot to say about intellectual passion, and if you press the matter, I'm not… I'm not really real sure how those two fit together, or if they're…


664
01:19:29.703 --> 01:19:44.882
mullins: different. Sometimes I think that intellectual passions are a species of moral passions, and sometimes I think that moral passions are a species of intellectual passions. It could go either way, but certainly they're important.


665
01:19:44.883 --> 01:19:51.412
mullins: And, that is something that seems to me, really is…


666
01:19:51.733 --> 01:19:56.452
mullins: Now, very much central to discussion


667
01:19:56.753 --> 01:20:12.492
mullins: Two Zoom meetings ago, we had Donovan Schaefer, and he was a figure who's mining Polanyi. And what he really liked in Polanyi is that Polanyi is quite straightforward, that passion is the center of things.


668
01:20:12.493 --> 01:20:25.473
mullins: So it seems to me that we need to do some work on moral and intellectual passions, and maybe that might be useful for the broader discussion in our culture.


669
01:20:32.943 --> 01:20:36.622
Paul Lewis: Yeah, I think, you know, one of the interesting things is, is that


670
01:20:37.413 --> 01:20:45.203
Paul Lewis: The conservative side of things seems to do a better job of stirring up passions.


671
01:20:45.283 --> 01:20:56.603
Paul Lewis: than progressives sometimes, right? The notion of threat. I mean, I'm thinking specifically about living through the.


672
01:20:56.633 --> 01:21:05.523
Paul Lewis: what happened with the Southern Baptist Convention back in the late 70s into the 80s, right? Where a certain group of people


673
01:21:06.283 --> 01:21:07.673
Paul Lewis: started yelling.


674
01:21:09.203 --> 01:21:16.232
Paul Lewis: seminaries teaching not to believe the Bible anymore. The worst thing you can say to a bunch of Baptists is, oh, he doesn't believe the Bible.


675
01:21:16.663 --> 01:21:26.362
Paul Lewis: And the moderates to defend themselves, no, we believe in Baptist polity. Well, what's going to win, Bible or polity, right?


676
01:21:26.963 --> 01:21:39.083
Paul Lewis: And that group of conservative… the conservative resurgence, if you're on that side, or the fundamentalist takeover, if you're on the other side, you know, the…


677
01:21:39.583 --> 01:21:40.902
Paul Lewis: the, the right


678
01:21:41.933 --> 01:21:55.022
Paul Lewis: looked at all the constitutions and bylaws of all the organizations, and slowly and systematically put people in place that they finally took over power.


679
01:21:55.313 --> 01:21:56.463
Paul Lewis: But again.


680
01:21:57.323 --> 01:22:12.953
Paul Lewis: activating the passions, activating the right passions in the right way, I think, are… are… it's really important, but then it gets hard, okay, what's… what's the right passion, right? Obviously, it's… because we all want to say, oh, it's what I believe in.


681
01:22:13.483 --> 01:22:14.403
Charles Lowney: Not fear.


682
01:22:14.403 --> 01:22:18.543
Paul Lewis: Yeah, fear is not the right. Fear is going to trigger the threat.


683
01:22:18.653 --> 01:22:21.483
Paul Lewis: But it also gets people active, too.


684
01:22:21.763 --> 01:22:22.303
Charles Lowney: How.


685
01:22:22.303 --> 01:22:23.663
Paul Lewis: I don't know.


686
01:22:23.663 --> 01:22:31.262
Charles Lowney: I think that might be why the right is so riled up, because they take it as a personal threat. You're trying to end


687
01:22:31.263 --> 01:22:46.862
Charles Lowney: my way of existence, my nationality, my culture, right? It's a personal threat, whereas on the left, you're usually fighting for other people, right? The rights of trans, the rights of immigrants, the right… right? So it's… it's not…


688
01:22:47.033 --> 01:22:49.502
Charles Lowney: As deep a personal threat.


689
01:22:49.833 --> 01:22:50.413
Paul Lewis: No.


690
01:22:53.623 --> 01:22:57.703
marymoodey: Lonnie also talked about the passion to persuade.


691
01:23:09.363 --> 01:23:11.863
Gus Breytspraak: Well, Alan and Paul, we


692
01:23:12.093 --> 01:23:15.052
Gus Breytspraak: Appreciate, both of you.


693
01:23:15.173 --> 01:23:24.032
Gus Breytspraak: getting us started and continuing here. Do either of you have, final thoughts as we're drawing close to our ending time?


694
01:23:26.233 --> 01:23:26.783
Paul Lewis: Okay.


695
01:23:28.903 --> 01:23:39.003
Paul Lewis: I don't have anything definitive. I just have appreciated in in the discussion. I think Alan's raised some good questions. We only managed to get to a couple of them.


696
01:23:39.493 --> 01:23:54.673
Allen Dyer: Yeah, I would say I very much appreciate the discussion. I appreciate the stimulus for the discussion, and I appreciate the thoughtfulness with which I consider it a real privilege to be part of this discussion. So thank you very much.


697
01:23:57.293 --> 01:23:59.322
mullins: Okay, well, it's 12:30.


698
01:23:59.323 --> 01:24:03.833
Craig Wickstrom: Steven Turner, do you have something to say?


699
01:24:04.103 --> 01:24:19.862
Stephen Turner: No, I enjoyed this. Now I'm thinking about ethics and, thinking about, Wittgenstein's lecture on ethics, which I think actually might be closer to Polanyi than, systems of ethics, but…


700
01:24:25.793 --> 01:24:28.493
Gus Breytspraak: Eduardo, you've been very quiet.


701
01:24:33.573 --> 01:24:35.273
mullins: You're muted Eduardo.


702
01:24:35.573 --> 01:24:38.233
Gus Breytspraak: Maybe that's why you're quiet, you're muted.


703
01:24:43.543 --> 01:24:51.672
Eduardo Beira: Yeah, I appreciate discussion, but I don't have nothing special to add. Anyway, thanks.


704
01:24:52.093 --> 01:24:53.282
Gus Breytspraak: Good to see you.


705
01:24:53.893 --> 01:24:54.883
mullins: So.


706
01:24:55.693 --> 01:25:05.872
mullins: We will put together probably some more of these, so just watch your email, and if you have suggestions about things we could.


707
01:25:06.013 --> 01:25:12.173
mullins: Have a good discussion on please send them along to Gus and me.


708
01:25:12.613 --> 01:25:14.943
mullins: Otherwise, we'll see you next time.


709
01:25:15.223 --> 01:25:28.223
Gus Breytspraak: All right, one final word. Our new book editor for Tradition and Discovery, Stan Scott, is looking for books to be reviewed. If you have suggestions.


710
01:25:28.253 --> 01:25:43.102
Gus Breytspraak: for, books to be reviewed in the Polanyi Society. I'll put something about that in the… when I send out the link, but he's, kind of put out an appeal for ideas for books to be reviewed.


711
01:25:43.303 --> 01:25:46.413
Gus Breytspraak: And also, volunteers to review them.


712
01:25:46.413 --> 01:25:47.063
Stephen Turner: Yeah.


713
01:25:47.063 --> 01:25:47.983
Gus Breytspraak: So.


714
01:25:47.983 --> 01:25:49.192
Stephen Turner: That's the hard thing.


715
01:25:49.193 --> 01:25:50.123
Gus Breytspraak: Yeah.


716
01:25:50.323 --> 01:25:50.883
Paul Lewis: Yeah.


717
01:25:51.403 --> 01:25:54.542
Gus Breytspraak: All right, we'll see you again next time. Good to see everyone.


718
01:25:54.783 --> 01:25:55.873
Craig Wickstrom: Okay, bye. Bye.


719
01:25:55.873 --> 01:25:56.313
Charles Lowney: Right.


720
01:25:57.653 --> 01:25:58.463
Duane Lookingbill: Thank you.